Episode Transcript
Speaker 0
Mikkel, this is the start of season three. Can you believe it? Oh my god. It's crazy. It's been so fun.
Speaker 1
So fun. And how much have we learned?
Speaker 0
I'm super smart now.
Speaker 1
Thanks to everyone who's listened, giving us feedback, asked us questions, made us smarter. We're doing this for you, and we're so honored that you're here with us.
Speaker 0
And we're just getting started. Our community has been growing leaps and bounds, and we have so many amazing guests lined up for season three. I just can't wait to get into it. Starting with today's guest that I think was it doctor Jen Zelovitsky that introduced us? She did thank you, doctor Jen. We love you. Yeah. This conversation, Mikael, it completely, completely rocked my world because as you know, I've struggled with my weight my entire life, like, always. And I always just thought that eating disorders were like anorexic anorexia or bulimia, those things in those remember those after school special?
Speaker 1
We're so old. Yes. I do.
Speaker 0
I do it. Yeah. That's what I thought it was. But during this episode, I realized that I probably had disordered eating for decades, like, my entire life, and I just never knew it. And our guest today, Kyla Fox, she's a master level clinician who's been treating eating disorders for twenty years. And she created this the center, this amazing place to help people across all spectrums of yo yo dieting, negative body image, disordered eating, and eating disorders.
Speaker 1
I think a lot of our community is gonna have the same moment you did when they listen to this because a lot of women in perimenopause, like you and I, gained weight overnight, started to panic, and we got we started getting restrictive with our food and or over exercising.
Speaker 0
Or both because that's what we did in our twenties.
Speaker 1
Right? But okay. Without giving too much of our conversation away, those restrictions and rituals are a form of disordered eating.
Speaker 0
Yeah. So let's get into it. This episode is a two parter. The first half you're listening to right now. The next half is gonna drop next Wednesday, so stay tuned. Also, I had a construction crew in the house the day we recorded this, so there's some background noise, and please try to ignore it.
Speaker 1
Getting vulnerable, dealing with the unexpected, realizing how we've been eating may not be so healthy after all. This is perimenopause.
Speaker 0
Welcome to the show, Kyla. So excited to have you here.
Speaker 2
Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. I'm so happy to talk to you both. Yay. Truly.
Speaker 0
Well, I don't remember how we got introduced to you.
Speaker 1
Doctor Jin. Doctor Jin.
Speaker 0
Oh my gosh. God love her. But when we found out about you and what you did and when we did some research, we were like, yes. Like, we have to have you on the podcast. It's such a fascinating story, and what you do is amazing and so well, so much needed. And, so we're so grateful. For our listeners who haven't met you before, can you please tell us a little bit about your background and how and why you created the center? Yes.
Speaker 2
So I have been a clinical therapist now for twenty years. Is that crazy or what?
Speaker 1
Crazy. Really? Isn't it too many?
Speaker 0
Because you look like you're like you look like you're thirty. So
Speaker 2
Yes. Okay. Crazy. Years. So I've been I've been I've been practicing for twenty years, and I opened the center now almost fifteen years ago. Now the center came to me when I was in my private practice, and I was working with people in different kinds of ways and realizing that they needed they needed treatment far beyond just their individual therapy with me. So I was doing things like seeing people very regularly and over mealtimes and trying to help them to be exposed to different ways of combating their relationship with food and their body and their rituals. And then I would just say to myself, like, there needs to be a place where, you know, I can help these people and lead in their care. And I understand this so well because I struggled with an eating disorder. And so I just got so tired of talking about a want to create something that I just created the center. And so the center is, in essence, we are an individualized treatment center that works with people across the entire spectrum of eating disorders, disordered eating, yo yo dieting, negative body image. Wherever and if ever you fall into any part of that spectrum, we help you. And that means we do that also in a very individualized way. One of the things that I've come to understand so deeply when I think about eating disorders or disordered eating is that no two people suffer in the same way because no two people have the same lives, and, therefore, no two people require the same treatment. You know, essentially, we're kinda like treatment by design. We get to know them. We get to really understand them, and then we build care in a collaborative way with them, for them.
Speaker 0
What it like, what what do you mean by care?
Speaker 2
We build a, like, a treatment plan with different forms of the work that we provide and offer that we feel and recommend, will really support this person and why. So this is based on, like, the goals that we learn that people have, the ways that we start to understand how much they're suffering, when, why, all the rules and rituals that they might have around food in the body. We also really believe that people, do so much better in making change when the people around them, the people that they love are involved in the care because there's a different level of accountability. There's a different level of, connection and support and education and understanding around that person who's struggling. You know, I think sometimes when you're struggling with an eating disorder or disordered eating, like, there's such a sense of aloneness and alienation and secrecy. And what I've seen over the twenty years of helping thousands and thousands of people is that when people around you are a part of the change, then you change differently because they also change. Because one of the things that happens with eating disorders is they're, like, they're secretive and they're sneaky and they're manipulative. And I say this honestly because I had one, and so I know it's it's it's a thing that happens. They lie. They do all kinds of things. And so when we can catch them and see them and know them and recognize how they exist in our relationships and how they play out in different parts of our lives, then then everyone around us is working to block that eating disorder out, not just the person who's struggling. And that's really, really key.
Speaker 1
Right. And you're not wasting all of this precious energy trying to hide it from all of these other people who are trying to navigate it on your own. I can't even begin to imagine. When you said the word spectrum of eating disorders, Kyla, I immediately went to, oh, yeah. And I wonder, you know, does anyone not have does anyone not fall on the spectrum in some way, especially, not to stereotype, but I think is it true that women more so than men succumb to this this type of challenge?
Speaker 2
I I think women predominantly are impacted on this spectrum for sure. I think you ask a really important question around, is anyone really not on it? I mean, you know, we're all so inundated by diet culture and fitness culture and messages and images about what we should eat, what we should not eat, what we should look like, what we should not. Like, it's just so part of how we live in the world that we begin to feel like it's normal, and it's not. It's
Speaker 1
not. Yeah. So maybe, you know, I think maybe for for our benefit, but also for our listeners, maybe we could delve into what an eating disorder is. Because I think, you know, unless someone has experienced it or has received treatment or knows someone who's experienced an eating disorder and had treatment, you know, I think people think well anorexia, bulimia, most people get that. But the then the end then then it kinda falls off. Right? And there's so much more to this based on the limited, you know, research that I've done. Maybe you could tell us. So what is an eating disorder?
Speaker 2
So I think about eating disorders in a really different way. I don't think about them in the sort of categories that we often have come to understand them, like the ones that you named, like anorexia, bulimia, binge eating. I think when we think about eating disorders, we think about those categories of people suffering. And then there's ideas about what those people are doing and how they look based on those categories. Now I really blow down all of those pieces, and I actually think about eating disorders very differently. I think about them in terms of symptoms. I think about them in terms of ideas of binge, purge, and restrict. These are three primary symptoms that people with eating disorders or disordered eating have. They have them in different ways. They have them in different practices. They have them for different reasons, but they move through these patterns of binge, purge, restrict in very unique ways to them. And often, the trajectory of a person's experience in binge, purge, and restrict changes over time. So maybe someone might have been on this, you know, spectrum at one point and really was restricting food or restricting the volume of food or restricting certain categories of food, And then maybe they sort of swung into binging on food or purging on exercise and maybe kinda going back and forth with that, and then maybe coming back to restriction and then maybe swinging back into binge purge. What I'm trying to suggest, I think, is that nobody nicely fits into boxes of anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating disorder. People are always changing through the spectrum of binge purge and restrict. And I sometimes feel like these categories alienate people because they don't fit into these boxes, but yet they're suffering. And so I'm less interested in the labels, and I'm more interested in how you feel controlled by patterns of binge purge and restrict. Why do you have to do these things with food in your body? What is it really about beyond food in the body? And then how can my team step in and start to support developing more thoughtfulness and regulation when it comes to food, when it comes to the body, but also to really help people get to those deeper root causes that those food patterns actually are rooted in. So what we think about at the center is that binge purge restrict shows up in food in the body, but it actually also shows up in life. It it shapes the way that we live, which is then why it shows up in food in the body. Like, maybe you've been, like, restricted of the love of a parent as an example, or maybe you have a really chaotic partnership, like binge. It feels messy, and it takes over you. Or, you know, like, we try to help people understand these ideas well beyond food and work there too so that that can differently inform a relationship with food in the body.
Speaker 1
Fascinating. And even you're as you're describing Purge, until two minutes ago. Purge in my mind was always about vomiting. But you said exercise, purge. Yeah. Holy fuck. Sorry. I have bad bad potty mouth.
Speaker 2
Oh, so do I. Good. Bring it
Speaker 1
on. It hadn't even occurred to me the type of purging.
Speaker 0
But I remember doing this. I remember doing this. I would eat. I would go out and eat, and then I would come home, and I'd be like, oh, I gotta go on the treadmill, like, or that little elliptical machine like
Speaker 2
So that that is a symptom of I of of of compensation, and purge is the symptom of ridding yourself, starting over, clearing out the bad choices you've done. And purge, more than more than vomiting shows up in exercise. And the reason why that's problematic and almost gets overlooked is because we live in a culture that normalizes over exercise, that has all these, you know, meanings around what it means to be fit and exercise and all this stuff, but it is the most common purge symptom.
Speaker 0
Can I just say, Kyla, like and I have to be quiet because I've got a house full of people today, but my son, like, the other he knew he was had a big weekend coming up? He knew he was gonna be partying and doing all the stuff. He was on the treadmill for, like, over an hour in the morning. Like, he got up and he went on the like, because and he's recently lost, like, a bunch of weight. He looks fantastic. He looked fantastic before, but it's been really important to him, and he's been working on this for a few years. And hearing you say that, I'm like, fuck. I knew it was a problem. Like, when he was doing it, I'm like, he's still on the treadmill. Something's wrong here. And now hearing you say this, I'm like, oh my gosh. So what do we do?
Speaker 2
Oh my god. Well, I think that ends up happening, and this is where I think eating disorders are really important to consider. Like, symptoms don't start out with the intention of overtaking us. They actually kinda start out more innocently. And then slowly but surely, they start to take on more momentum. They start to take up more time and space in our lives. They start to sort of, like, catch on to us because maybe they bring us results. They start to, become these very patterned and ways that we feel we have to keep living. Because, you know, as soon as we get those results, we feel like we wanna hold on to them. So and then they just grow. And then they start to kind of our lives starts to become built around them.
Speaker 0
This is, like, fascinating to me, Kyla. And, again, I knew when I kept hearing the mesh the treadmill going, I knew that, like, like and yet I you know? As a parent, I grew up with, like, hearing you talk about, the restrict the binge and the purge. Like, I grew up having to hide food from my mom. And so I would, like, you know, squirrel away food in my bedroom, bring it to my bedroom. I my sister and my mother were, quote, unquote, had these, you know, great bodies for the time, the eighties, and I was always the pudgy one. And so my mom was very concerned about my appearance, of course, and in a loving way, but, you know, it was the eighties. Like, it she didn't mean she thought she was healthy. Right? But but now still to this day, I can go. I can have my meal. I don't have to have dessert or anything after dinner. Like, I'm I'm good after dinner. I'm great. But the moment he's away for the weekend, I'm like, oh, go get the chocolate. Go get the the Jube Jubes and, like, mix them together because chocolate and Jube Jubes are, like, insane together. But I wouldn't do that on a Monday to Friday night when he's around. It's just when he's gone that I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2
But I think that's an interesting concept if we think about it. You know, people with people always wanna talk about sort of the food pieces. And I think what you're saying there is that, like, you are in a state of where you have a life restriction. Like, your husband is gone, so there's restriction. And then in that space of restriction, you binge. It may not be quantitatively a binge in the way that we might understand it. It may be, but it may not be. But the essence but the essence of but what it means to fill in a particular way in the space of restriction is part of what we need to understand about binge. So these are all, again, interesting rituals that people have, but you know? And and and they're so unique to each and every person. And, frankly, I would argue that people probably have hundreds and hundreds of them. They don't even know it. I mean, this is what's so fascinating when we start at the center to be talking to people and illuminating these kinds of patterns. But it's also critical to think, like, what is happening in our lives that actually then leads the action with the food. So what is actually happening in the in the space between you and your husband? What happens when you're
Speaker 0
I think it's more, like, back from when like, this the whole thing, like, no one's around. No one's around to see this. And now I can just relax and, like,
Speaker 2
I don't know. The secrecy. I think that's probably it. Like, these ideas that happen.
Speaker 0
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 0
Okay. So, Kyla, so one of the common comp complaints that we hear in our community is that many women in their thirty late thirties, forties, fifties wake up one day, and they seem to have gained ten pounds overnight. And they look in the mirror. They don't recognize themselves anymore. What used to work for them, the whole eat less, exercise more, it's not working anymore. Nothing is working. It's it's devastating, and it definitely impacts our relationship with food and our relationship with our bodies. And I'm speaking so, passionately about this because this is definitely me, and yet I've never considered that I might have an eating disorder. So how do you define an eating disorder, and what's the difference between, like I don't know. Is there a difference between having a difficult relationship with food and actually having an eating disorder? Is there is there a line?
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a it's probably in the same way that I feel that, there was, like, a spectrum of symptoms or, like, the the acuity of symptoms. I feel like there's probably a spectrum of whether or not you have disordered eating or eating disordered, and I think distinguishing them is challenging because a lot of people who are highly functioning with disordered eating patterns, you know, could maybe be deemed having eating disorders. But then also people might think that having an eating disorder means that, like, you can't function in the world, and it takes over your life, and you should be in a hospital. So I think there are a lot of ways to look at it. But at the end of the day, you know, I think it's maybe more important how you identify because some people just feel really scared to say they have an eating disorder, and that's okay. Like, I sometimes feel like labels can be important, and for some people, they are. And I sometimes feel like for others, they can be really alienating. So sometimes I like to just sort of throw the language away about whether it's an eating disorder and disordered eating. Like, we could call it, like, anything you want. But at the end of the day, if you are struggling and feeling preoccupied with food or your body, and it takes up time and space and energy, And you feel like you can't be in relationship with yourself, and you feel like it overtakes you, or you feel like you're missing time, or you feel like you can't focus on the things you want, or you feel like you can't go in go out with your friends for dinner because you're not able to eat those things or you feel like, oh, I can't, like, get dressed in the morning. Like, fuck. I hate my body. Or, like, like, you know, like, I recognize that as women in particular, we all have moments of this, experience of this, and that is normal. But the level of preoccupation or how that takes over your life or the impact that that has, I think then starts to shift in terms of being in terms of it maybe being more disordered or eating disordered.
Speaker 0
Does that make sense? I think so.
Speaker 2
It's hard it's it's hard it's it's it's hard, especially, like, if we go back to the piece of what you were saying about, like, women at this stage of life and you snap your fingers and overnight, you feel like your body has changed. So one of the things that I think is really important to mention is, like, there is an uprise of women moving through perimenopause and menopause coming forward and saying, like, I have an eating disorder or that they're suffering with food in their body in their way in ways they never did before. Now what I would say about that is, like, yes. That is true. There's no question. Like, medically speaking, that is a real thing that our body does change during this time. We do gain weight. We do lose muscle mass. It is a real thing based on hormones. That is very true. And I also think that for all the years leading up to perimenopause and menopause, a lot of women have been using patterns of binge, purge, restrict to keep them safe in their bodies. And now those things don't work. Like you said, more women at this stage are, like, upping the ante. They're like, I'm gonna exercise even more now. I'm gonna eat even less now. And it's like, I used to be able to cut this out, and then I'd fit into that dress. So it was always disordered, and now it's, like, through the roof because what you would have relied on before to help you feel safe in your body doesn't work anymore. So I think there's this thinking of, like, now I have a problem, but I actually like to illuminate that these rules and rituals have existed long before now for most people. They just don't work anymore. Whereas before, you would maybe get the result you liked, so you would move yourself through the torture because you felt like it was, quote, unquote, worth it, and it worked. But it actually just you went into that space, and then you were sent back out. And then you were back into that diet, and then you were sent back out. And you fit into that dress, and then, oh, shit. You didn't fit into that dress. But but but right? So it never actually worked. And all that that has done for so many women is teach us that we can never have a safe and trusting relationship with food in our body because we're always yo yoing. We can never ever trust ourselves because we don't know what to do. And it sets us up now for this time in our life where we truly are changing physically. Like, that's a real thing and that we better damn well hate ourselves because of it. Because we always did before, and we did anything possible to make sure we could correct it. And so now we just hate ourselves even more because we can't, quote, unquote, fix it the same way. So I think there's, like, a lot of undoing.
Speaker 0
Oh, this is heartbreaking right now. Like, I'm listening to you, and I'm seeing myself in your words or hearing. It's heartbreaking. So what do, yeah, what do we do?
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a great question. Like, I feel there's so you know, I've been thinking about this so much because I've been talking a lot about, like, perimenopause and menopause and eating disorders, and it's like, I've been thinking about, like, you know what? What is it that, like, when women go through these unbelievable, like, stages of development and transitional stages in life, like pregnancy, like puberty, I should say. Puberty you start, pregnancy, postpartum, perimenopause, menopause. These are, like, high times for eating disorders to develop. And it's so fascinating to me that these are, like, the most remarkable transitional times of a woman's life. And yet all we focus on is our bodies during this time. Like, it's so painful and sad to think that we transition through puberty or pregnancy or fertility or postpartum or menopause, and all anyone wants to say about it is how we look or what our body should or shouldn't look like. Like, I mean, come on. There's, like, a way bigger problem if we can't start talking about and honoring all the things as women that we do, that we move through, that we become so far beyond what our body looks like. I feel like this is the greater problem. You know? And so then we end up in these stages of life, and we're just stuck on what we look like or what we stop looking like. And our whole sense of worth and value is then built on our bodies or how old we're getting or how unattractive we're becoming or how attract like, you know, whatever it is. Right? So I think I I mean, I'm going on a tangent, so I'm not gonna say that anymore. But I feel like that's a really important rec like, we have to give some some recognition to that. And then I also feel like it is really hard for sure, especially in our society, to just allow your body to change and to accept that. Like, I don't wanna pretend that we should have some kumbaya moment as women and just be like, we love our body. You know? Like, it just doesn't work. Like, I mean, that's not realistic. Like, it is very distressing if your body is changing and you don't know what to do about it. But I also feel like we've never even learned prior to now, prior to perimenopause and menopause, how to even be in relationship with our body. So, of course, it's gonna feel so out of control right now. And there's a lot of work that I think women have to do far beyond, oh my god. How do I stop this? What do I need to eat differently? How much weight should I be lifting to build muscles, to change fat? Like, you know, I think we also need to ask ourselves, like, you know, have we have we confronted the things in our life? Have we addressed the things that have impacted us? What does it feel like that our kids don't need us in the same way anymore? And maybe we're, you know, changing our sort of value and role as mothers. Or, you know, now we have to sort of really look at our partnership in a different way because our kids aren't in the way of that anymore. What does it mean that we're, like, super overworked trying to manage kids, trying to manage aging parents? Go, go, go, can't stop, won't stop, all these things. And, like, there's no time for ourselves. We're so exhausted. Like, there's so much that I think we have to recognize, let alone all of our history that has shaped us, all of the things we've been through, loss, trauma. Like, it's so deep, our relationship with our body. It's so deep.
Speaker 1
Where
Speaker 0
let's just pause for a second and absorb that leg up.
Speaker 1
Oh my gosh. You know, and it's it's fascinating to me that we're we're here in this conversation quite early on, because I think this is something we've been circling for a while now, Michelle, in the context of, you know, the perimenopausal journey and the toolkit you need in order to go from surviving to thriving. And we keep bumping up against, oh, but wait a minute, we need to prioritize ourselves. Oh, but wait a minute, we need to understand, right, the the mental aspect of what's going on, not just why the physiological symptoms are happening potentially because of hormone fluctuations and aging and etcetera. But what is it about who we are that's also driving what's going on, and how do you, how do you not just figure that out, but then be brave enough to make time to dig into that. It's, scary. Is this is this kinda what you get at at the center? I feel like
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I think this is it. Right? It's like, I feel like when people make the decision to finally face the relationship with food in their body and to surrender to understanding that, they're finally making a decision when they're working with us at the center to face all of these deeper things in their lives and to make sense of them. Because I actually feel like that inadvertently helps us make sense of our relationship with food and our body. Like, when we can really get to the deeper pieces that I think most people spend most of their life avoiding or pushing down or restricting away from or feeling like it's not a big deal or I'm over that. And that's not to undermine, like, any previous therapeutic work that anyone has done. You know? Like, I think it's important to remember that as we move through different stages of life, even if we've done some really good work in the past and we feel like, I got through that thing, sometimes the meaning of it changes when we change.
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and write a review.
Speaker 0
So more women can find us and get a better understanding of what to expect in perimenopause.
Speaker 1
This information is not intended as medical advice. The intent of this information is to provide the listener with knowledge to support more efficient and effective communication with their medical provider.
