Episode Transcript
Justine Corry (02:46.833)
It is so amazing and surprising to be here actually. And I loved it when I got your email. So, my goodness, someone from Canada wants to speak to me. What the fuck?
Mikelle Ethier (02:55.28)
Yes, so for our listeners, a little backstory. I was on our Instagram feed one day and popped this post from Dr. Justine Quarry and it was about women over apologizing and how that has become her Roman Empire. And I read through the carousel and I was just floored. And normally I would...
Yeah, yes we do.
Justine Corry (03:12.938)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (03:19.712)
wait and talk to Michelle and I didn't wait. just immediately sent you an email and said, please, would you come on our podcast? We need you and all of our listeners need you. maybe we'll start then with a bit of your background in how you became a behavior change expert and then we can dive into the work that you do.
Justine Corry (03:26.687)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (03:39.263)
Yes, okay.
Sure, so I have been in mental health, working in mental health for 25 years and I've been a clinical psychologist for 20 of those, so a long time. And so I suppose within my training you learn pretty much how to take people from A to B from a mental health perspective, try to improve their mental health. And when I was in my trainings, this was in my late 20s, I was really, really lucky to be exposed to schema therapy, which I...
want me to explain a bit about that. But the very crux of it very briefly is that it looks at patterns rather than symptoms. That's probably the key differentiator between that and other therapies. So from the word go, you're talking to someone about the patterns they're stuck in, not just their mood, their anxiety symptoms or their stress symptoms or their burnout or their depression.
Mikelle Ethier (04:12.599)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (04:19.64)
Mmm.
Justine Corry (04:35.765)
pretty much orienting them to, why are you stuck? How did you learn this? And what do we need to do to get you unstuck? So I was exposed to that very early in my career through a research project I was involved in as a research assistant. And that really just altered my trajectory as a clinician because I was training in CPT at the time, which is a great therapy, but it's very much looking at negative thinking.
which is really is only part of the story when you think about behavior change. Now I know. And so this just enabled me to make very quickly a decision to go, oh my goodness, I'm not going to just be a CBT therapist. I'm going to be a schema therapist. I'm going to get right to the crux of issues for people really quickly from a pattern perspective. And I suppose when I call myself a behavior change expert, it's because I think looking at things at a pattern level is the best way.
Mikelle Ethier (05:07.479)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (05:33.343)
to get people to shift because the clarity it gives is unbelievable. It's amazing.
Mikelle Ethier (05:38.112)
Yeah, so right, instead of tools, am I thinking about this in the right way? Instead of giving people tools to help manage their anxiety, as an example, schema therapy helps you determine why the anxiety is there in the first place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (05:49.972)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (05:54.751)
Totally, there is always a why. That's one thing I'd like people to know. Just because you're not sure what it is doesn't mean there isn't one. We're awful observers of ourselves. We make things up if we're not sure.
Mikelle Ethier (06:08.664)
Michelle's like, you just nailed it. The look on her face was like, yep.
Michelle (06:09.818)
All the time. my god, you're sick. Yup.
Justine Corry (06:14.773)
You know, it's probably this, you know, it's my sleep or, know, and look, that could be a part of it. But generally, if you've got some emotional state that you're not liking, and it's hanging around, there will be some pattern or schema underneath it as well. And those things like breathing and, you know, becoming more assertive with your communication and learning to challenge your thinking, those are all great skills and tools. Don't get me wrong, but
Really knowing the why is what gives you a solid foundation to then make different decisions when you're triggered going forward. Yeah.
Michelle (06:49.338)
because then sorry, so you get triggered. Well, let's, I'm gonna jump way ahead, but let me stop for a second for a minute and then why don't we, can you go a little deeper on schema therapy or like, let's get really.
Justine Corry (06:53.395)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (06:59.815)
Yeah. Okay.
Mikelle Ethier (07:00.736)
Yeah. Maybe some of the common patterns or yeah, I don't know. We'll let you guide us. We don't know anything about this and clearly need to know it about all of it.
Justine Corry (07:03.679)
Sure. Okay, I know it's actually, yeah, all good. I'll try and keep it brief again. It's hard to explain. You can help me ask the questions. So we already discussed patterns, okay? So we're stuck in these patterns, but where do these patterns come from? Well, Schema Therapy acknowledges from the very beginning as the fact that we all come into the world with emotional needs that are universal, a particular temperament.
Michelle (07:11.589)
All of it.
And then let's do,
Justine Corry (07:33.533)
and we're born into a particular family of origin. Okay, and part of the reason why our brain is so undeveloped when we're born, part of the reason, is that we uniquely fit into our family of origin and do what we need to do to stay connected and therefore survive. Okay, so that's the universal reality. So people who say your childhood don't matter don't understand that fully. Okay.
Michelle (07:52.518)
interesting.
Mikelle Ethier (07:55.213)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (07:59.82)
Right. Right.
Justine Corry (08:02.419)
And then depending on what experiences you have and how extreme those are, you develop negative or maladaptive schemas. Okay. So a schema, think of it like a lens, like glasses. Okay. So I'm seeing a particular view without my glasses on. I put my glasses on and I see it clearly. Well, I think it's more clearly more crisper and in a different way. And that's what, that's a good way to think about what a schema is. So for example, if I'm a
child and I am born into a family where there is a lot of chaos and busyness and you know it doesn't even have to be like full-on trauma okay that definitely creates schemas but the majority of us get schemas created by just the small daily misattunements unmet needs that just accumulate over time and impact who you think you are how you show up in relationships and what you expect from other people.
Mikelle Ethier (09:00.344)
Mm.
Justine Corry (09:01.525)
Okay, so if I have a parent who's a bit cranky and irritable and stressed, say, just because they've got their own schemas. Like, sorry.
Mikelle Ethier (09:08.332)
I wouldn't, what, a parent that's Frankie Erdovell is, that's what?
Michelle (09:10.41)
Wait, That's me. So what's happening to my son? my God.
Mikelle Ethier (09:15.416)
Okay, sorry, yes. So yes, that's a great example because...
Justine Corry (09:15.829)
Okay, well look, I don't want you to leave this podcast with more guilt and shame, but you know, if you are more like that on average, right, and also your child's needs, your child's temperament gets taken into account, they're going to experience more unmet needs and they might get a defective schema, right? So I'm not good enough because I'm always being shouted at or criticized or not given an affirmation. Yep.
Michelle (09:17.222)
Thank
Mikelle Ethier (09:21.068)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (09:25.783)
Yeah.
Michelle (09:42.862)
not being paid attention to.
Justine Corry (09:46.077)
And so then what happens for that person is they grow up very sensitized to criticism and things that one person might think are neutral become like a criticism to them, it feels like it. And so they move through the world with a lot more shame than the average person. For example, and that makes life harder, basically, if you've got more shame triggers in your life, it's harder. you know, whether
Mikelle Ethier (09:50.584)
Hmm.
Justine Corry (10:13.255)
As they got grabbed could be teachers, be friends, could be partners, could be bosses. If they experienced someone who was a bit critical, they will have a very big emotional response to that. And that's what we would call, what's it we would call it. That's what schema trigger is basically. Right. But you don't realize that because because of brain development, it's not like we know, right. Yeah, that's right. My mom was cranky at times and therefore.
We don't think like that. We have to learn to think like that to make sense of our experience in that way, because that gives us an opportunity to then do something different with it. So it's not so personal.
Michelle (10:51.408)
Can there be positive schemas too, or is this all negative?
Justine Corry (10:53.631)
There are positive schemas. Yes, there are. Totally. You know, like we learn schemas for everything. You know, if you take it to something very light, you know, we will have a schema about the car we drive, you know, like from our experiences, you know, my car is super reliable and you know, like it's a schema is just a mental shortcut that our brain uses to make decisions and assumptions about things because we can't move through the world constantly processing information.
Michelle (11:14.406)
Okay.
Mikelle Ethier (11:22.338)
Mm.
Michelle (11:23.088)
There's, especially in this world, there's too much.
Justine Corry (11:23.315)
But yeah, it's just too much. But so a lot of the relational rules or schemas we have though are made within our family of origin. That's the key thing. And they have the biggest impact on us as adults, how we show up in relationships, what we expect of ourselves, et cetera. So that's a very broad overview. Ask me questions to clarify things.
Mikelle Ethier (11:46.328)
Yeah, so could we, that's very helpful. I'm wondering if we could get into some of the common patterns that women get into, particularly when they hit perimenopause, right? And I love how you talk about the fact that maybe the exhaustion isn't actually burnout, right? so maybe we could talk a little bit about that comment and then...
Justine Corry (12:00.926)
Yes.
Justine Corry (12:11.187)
Yes, that's right.
Mikelle Ethier (12:16.504)
what sort of the common schemas are that lead to the exhaustion that is it not, know, it hormones are for sure at play, but there's a lot of other things going on here. Yeah.
Justine Corry (12:29.193)
Yeah. So think of, know, so these schemas are with us all our lives, right? And as we move through our life, we go through seasons and certain challenges are also always associated with particular seasons, like becoming a mother for the first time, for example, you know, getting your first job, having that third child, like there's, there's, all these transitions and things we have to adjust to that are very normal part of being a human, right?
Mikelle Ethier (12:46.7)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (12:58.921)
But schemas are often triggered at that transition point when something new starts to happen. And I suppose perimenopause, menopause is an example of that transition. Right? Yeah. That's right. And our body, but this is my own experience of perimenopause as well. I'm not menopause yet, I'm perimenopause. Your body all of a sudden takes up more room than it ever did before.
Mikelle Ethier (13:01.846)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (13:11.408)
Absolutely. It's a huge transition. Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (13:19.672)
Please share.
Mikelle Ethier (13:27.612)
my God, does it ever.
Justine Corry (13:29.267)
Yeah, it needs things from you. It gives you signals that you can't ignore anymore. And, you know, I can't think clearly. I'm not sleeping well. I'm more tired. I'm more cranky. And so if you're used to powering through your life, as lots of women are just juggling everything and putting your needs to the side.
Mikelle Ethier (13:33.388)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (13:50.239)
perimenopause or menopause can make that very difficult to continue with.
Mikelle Ethier (13:54.264)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (13:57.075)
Yeah. And so I often, you know, I'm, I'm aging with a lot of my clients, like we're all going through all these seasons together. And I'm just noticing those who adjust well to the space of life and those who don't. It's quite interesting. The ones who adjust well, you know, sure. And that group of women who don't have symptoms, you know, like they just breeze through it. Some women are like that, but the woman
Mikelle Ethier (14:06.393)
Yep.
Mikelle Ethier (14:14.168)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (14:24.393)
with just well, are those who are quite happy to express their needs for their needs to take up space. They've created lives where it's easy for their needs to take up space. There's more flex is like, people kind of don't have a connection if they duck out for that extra appointment, you know what mean? Like, there's just a lot more ease in their lives, more room or time for them to accommodate their needs. Plus they have less shame and guilt about their needs as well.
Mikelle Ethier (14:33.976)
Mmm.
Mikelle Ethier (14:40.588)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (14:51.512)
Mm.
Michelle (14:53.408)
You know what, I can see that. This is such a fascinating conversation already. my gosh. how do like, I feel like I've learned that though, and as I've aged as well to,
to be unapologetic about having some needs and about needing and also setting up my life in a way my husband loves to go, go, go, go, go. And I know that that is not my jam. And I know that if I do that, that's... Yeah, so I'm really good at being... I don't know, it's funny that I'm...
Mikelle Ethier (15:26.956)
recipe for disaster.
Justine Corry (15:28.637)
Yeah.
Michelle (15:36.302)
Is that something I've learned or is that sorry, I'm going to stop this. Amy cut this whole thing out. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm finding this fascinating because. Is that something like without being taught that I definitely have found in perimenopause that I've had to say no and put my foot down and even with work, you know, creating creating a schedule that works. For me and.
Justine Corry (16:02.911)
Yeah.
Michelle (16:08.186)
But why would I have figured, how did I figure that? I don't know. I don't even know what I want. Sorry, it's Sunday night and I'm so tired. I don't fire well in the evening, sorry. Mikkel, can you?
Mikelle Ethier (16:11.96)
You
Justine Corry (16:12.583)
Yeah, I mean... It's okay. Well...
It's all right. It would depend on what your schemas are and what your experiences are have been up until this point, right? So.
Mikelle Ethier (16:29.464)
So would it make sense? So Dr. Kaur, you mentioned that the clients you have who do manage perimenopause, well, they have that space. It's okay for their needs to take up space. It's okay for them to take up space. What about your clients where they don't have the space? I would assume that there's probably some common schemas underlying that type of life.
Justine Corry (16:44.617)
Yes. Yes.
Michelle (16:50.756)
But yeah, let's just go there.
Mikelle Ethier (16:59.19)
that's been created or that type of personality or whatever it is that has created. So are there some common ones that you can talk to us about that? Yeah.
Justine Corry (17:03.785)
Mm.
Justine Corry (17:07.145)
Sure. So there's 18 different schemas. Okay. So there's a lot 18. Okay. So I'll just take you through a few core ones though that most, most of my clients are a successful woman. They look like they've got it all together on the outside. You know, they're pairing through life, picking goals. Everyone goes, wow, how did you do that? You've got everything looks so together, but on the inside they die.
Mikelle Ethier (17:10.776)
18. Okay. Wow.
Mikelle Ethier (17:33.622)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (17:34.281)
You know, they're tied, they're burnt out, they're with guilt and shame, they're irritable, they're angry, they're resentful. They look at their husbands and they go, what am I doing here? You know, there's this inner turmoil and the schemers they often have are abandonment, right? So expecting people to leave them, emotional deprivation. So my needs are not important and I can't expect them to be met. Defectiveness.
Michelle (17:34.682)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (17:43.394)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (17:51.138)
and
Justine Corry (18:02.803)
There's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. Right. And then secondary to those three. So those are primary schemers. Secondary to those three are self-sacrifice. It's selfish to put my needs first.
subjugation. If I put my needs first, I'll experience retaliation or rejection.
and unrelenting standards, I need to be able to keep going and looking like I've got it all together and I'm super competent or else I'm not good enough.
Michelle (18:37.264)
Right.
Justine Corry (18:39.231)
So those were the main, and you know, look, they all tend to co-occur. They're not stretch categories, but you can see that once you start talking about these types of themes and patterns, there's already clarity. You know, it's like, yeah, I have that. Okay. How does that? So then you can start understanding, A, how you got to where you are, you know, not your fault, but you have to up the mess, unfortunately. And so I said to my clients, I'm so sorry, you're in this position, not your fault.
Michelle (18:51.355)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (19:07.106)
But you're the only person who can fix it, right?
Justine Corry (19:09.459)
But you have to make some difficult decisions and do the opposite of what you feel to fix it. Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (19:13.888)
Yeah, well, it's fascinating because when you listed those secondary, those three secondary, the self-sacrifice, the subjugation, the underlinting standards, I was like, yep, yep, yep. I don't know. So then is that where you start? And then you look at what the primary schemas might be? Because I couldn't tell you why, but I certainly identify with all of those. Yeah.
Justine Corry (19:24.298)
Yes.
Justine Corry (19:32.904)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (19:36.596)
Yes.
Well, that is a very common pattern actually. You, the secondary ones kind of stand out because they seem more behavioral and you can see yourself in them. And those first three can remain hidden, but I would guarantee that you would have two out of those three. If you've got the second three you mentioned. You just don't know it yet.
Mikelle Ethier (19:50.04)
Alright.
Michelle (20:00.368)
You know, it's funny because when you said the first three, I was like, well, doesn't everybody feel that they're not good enough? that's what you mean? I like what I just thought. just assumed we all had that little corn nugget somewhere deep inside of us.
Mikelle Ethier (20:07.774)
Hahaha
Justine Corry (20:07.924)
Yes.
Mikelle Ethier (20:16.94)
Well, and sorry, check the box for that too. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (20:20.693)
Okay, can relate to that one. Yeah, there are people who walk around in the world who aren't really bothered by those thoughts. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Obviously, I don't meet very many of them.
Michelle (20:22.854)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (20:29.132)
Really?
Yeah, yeah. So Michelle was alluding to earlier, you know, when we both started this as perimenopause because we had fairly brutal journeys when things hit, we didn't know what was going on. We were really struggling. And when we finally figured things out, we couldn't find anybody to help us. So here we are.
Michelle (20:32.217)
God, I'm envious.
Michelle (20:40.74)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (20:52.533)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (21:00.728)
But I know Michelle has done a lot of work. I think out of necessity, Michelle, you had to make space for your needs because it was.
Michelle (21:10.054)
I hit a wall, like I don't know if it was hormones or what it was, but I went down a dark, I was not functioning well, yeah.
Justine Corry (21:11.754)
Right.
Mikelle Ethier (21:12.783)
You were not functioning, right? We talked about this on a recent podcast, you know, we would get in a phone call and suddenly Michelle was crying and couldn't explain why, you know, just, and, had never had, you never had mental health challenges in it previously, right? So really struggling, but Michelle, without understanding what a schema is, has really done a good job of making space. can, do you, do we inadvertently end up addressing schemas?
Justine Corry (21:20.21)
and hopefully.
Mikelle Ethier (21:41.048)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (21:41.685)
We can do, like for sure. you know, sorry to hear you went through that, but well done for turning it around and tuning into yourself. Yeah, we're only good friends, don't we? We can do, you know, sometimes circumstance forces us to do it, right? So maybe in your situation, there was always room for your needs to take up space, maybe, but the barriers were in you to do that.
Michelle (21:47.034)
Thank you.
And I've got good friends, Miguel. A lot of help, yeah.
Michelle (22:08.581)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (22:10.156)
Mm. Mm.
Justine Corry (22:11.795)
And so once you made that decision, it could be accommodated. But for some people, like when they work with me, we start doing these little experiments where we say no to that or ask for that or, and then you quickly find out what's possible within your little ecosystem that you've got set up. And sometimes it's not possible just because of the relationship you've chosen or the job you're in or, know, and then, and then it's like, okay, what, what am I going to do then? Right. Then that's a whole big question.
Michelle (22:40.389)
Right.
Mikelle Ethier (22:40.61)
Yep. Yep.
Justine Corry (22:41.417)
But maybe for you, like, it was more of an internal shift and the people around you could accommodate it.
Michelle (22:48.582)
I do have a really solid group of friends and my husband is like the greatest guy on the planet. And yeah, so I guess I've been, I've set myself up well, I guess. Can I ask you a really kind of a side question? As a parent of three, with all of this knowledge,
Justine Corry (22:51.988)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (22:55.893)
Yeah, wonderful.
Justine Corry (23:01.109)
Yeah, that's right.
Justine Corry (23:09.941)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (23:12.752)
How does this impact your parenting and the way you're raising your boys so that they don't develop these schemas? Is that possible to?
Justine Corry (23:21.909)
I always say to my clients, and I've got schemers too, I've got all six of those schemers that I mentioned before. You aim for dilution. That's all you can aim for. Because your parents had schemers, your grandparents had schemers. It's the only way we get immortality actually. yeah, pretty much. All the good stuff, but you know.
Michelle (23:41.894)
We pass on our shit. Great.
Mikelle Ethier (23:42.513)
We pass on our shit. Yeah. Love it.
Justine Corry (23:49.909)
These intergenerational patterns get passed down. So I've always been aware, well, firstly, you could drive yourself mad, right? Knowing the minutiae, okay, gosh, if I keep doing this, you know, my son's gonna be on a therapy chair and I'll be the main character rather than a side character, know, in this therapy. Yeah, that's right, that's right, oh my God. So I've always been mindful.
Michelle (24:06.903)
Right? Yeah, yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (24:09.88)
asking for a friend.
Michelle (24:11.6)
Hahaha
Justine Corry (24:18.121)
to do the opposite of my own unrelenting standards and just, okay, I'm aiming for dilution. I'm just going to try and dilute the stuff that I don't want to pass on. And also making my kids, I mean, we talk about these things, these patterns. And when I parent from a place that isn't my best self, not my healthy adult mode, as we call it in schema therapy, I will go and do a repair with my kids and explain what happened. And
Michelle (24:26.691)
Okay.
Mikelle Ethier (24:41.912)
Mmm.
Justine Corry (24:45.493)
That takes back the shame that I've inadvertently induced by the way, but also models to them how to process what's going on in you. You know? And then when I'm commenting on that letter, I have to pull them up on something. And we talk about it. I will say, look, I think some of that comes from me and I'm really sorry for giving you this behavioural tendency, but it's not good. You know? They're just helping them understand their patterns as well.
Michelle (24:49.07)
Does it?
Mikelle Ethier (24:54.744)
Yeah.
Michelle (24:54.95)
Fair. Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (25:06.776)
Hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (25:11.831)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (25:16.117)
And then you can have different types of conversations, but it's impossible to not pass something on, you know.
Michelle (25:22.758)
Okay, so I'm not, because as I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, my God, like, I've always joked that my, least I'm giving my son something to talk about in therapy, but listening, I'm like, my gosh, maybe it's worse than I thought. As you said, I will be the main character.
Justine Corry (25:35.765)
Yeah, know it's a bit of a yeah, that's right. Just be a side character. That's analogy from my teenage kids. Such a NPC. Have you heard that one? non. An NPC? Such an NPC. You're a non-playable character. You're kind of irrelevant. I don't know how to keep you. That's funny.
Michelle (25:42.694)
Thank you.
Michelle (25:50.18)
No, now what?
Mikelle Ethier (25:58.84)
I love it. I love it.
Michelle (26:01.318)
That's amazing! So good.
Mikelle Ethier (26:03.8)
I love it. Well, can we maybe dive in a little bit deeper on some of these? I know, um,
Justine Corry (26:08.447)
So.
Mikelle Ethier (26:13.844)
you, maybe we could have you coach us on something, not to be here for hours if we go too extreme, just something, something that's fairly common that you've probably gleaned, we both have struggled with. And the fact that by addressing this, you know, I think we, we in some ways try to address things with self care, time off or.
Michelle (26:20.194)
Thank
Mikelle Ethier (26:40.342)
you know, setting a boundary without really understanding what's going on. And so I've regularly just felt like, like this is a, I'm not accomplishing anything by trying to do this, right? I'm not like, this isn't getting better. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that and what some of those common schemas are for women in perimenopause like us who do have symptoms and don't maybe have as much room as they need. What, you know,
Justine Corry (26:44.798)
Yes.
Mikelle Ethier (27:09.26)
How could we go about talking about that? doing that.
Justine Corry (27:09.821)
Yes. Okay. Well, it's probably would be good to zero and on a particular trigger, right? Cause when you're changing a pattern, so something that you do have actually like, it's a boundary, I want to get better at saying no to things so I can have more space for myself. There's what you do before you decide you're going to start setting boundaries. So say understand your patterns and where they've come from and you know, a little audit about
Mikelle Ethier (27:17.11)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (27:20.663)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (27:38.901)
what you might like to start saying no to or yes to. So you've got a bit of a plan and attention in your mind. And also understanding your emotional needs, your values and your patterns. Okay. So those are three essential bits of information. If you want to really start breaking things down and then there's what you do in the moment, right? So you're in the moment. You've got an opportunity to have a boundary. The old feelings are coming up. The old urge is to say, yeah, sure. Or whatever you want to say.
Mikelle Ethier (27:43.992)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (28:08.917)
What do you do then? And then there's what you do afterwards. So irrespective of whether it's gone well or not, how do you process it afterwards and then make sure you use that information to feed into the next time. Okay. So it's sort of like, there's a three stage thing. So yeah, it's about, yeah. Why do I do that?
Mikelle Ethier (28:25.484)
maybe as opposed to ruminate over why it went sideways. We were talking about rumination earlier before we got on with you and my God, that's.
Michelle (28:28.185)
Well, it's.
Michelle (28:34.822)
Like it's just it's beyond I had a situation that happened today and I upset someone and what I did was just me being me and I there was no malice and it was just and and so I've been going through my head into McKellen like it's okay that I did this because It wasn't offensive to 99 % of people that know me but this person was offended and and I guess it's good for her for being
putting her for letting me know that I offended her. Like there's something positive about her being able to say this is, but I still like I've been ruminating and going over it. And even though I know those two things are both true, I could have not done a malice and she needed to say her piece. So those are both okay. And yet I still can't get myself out of it.
Justine Corry (29:21.993)
Mm.
Justine Corry (29:28.373)
Okay, so we could do something with that. Do you to use that as a little practical moment? And that is a really common experience when people first come to see me. So they're not, they're not completely like, they're usually smart, intelligent woman who've done some self-development. Probably know I need to say no more, you know, I'm a people pleaser, et cetera. And I know all this logically, but emotionally I'm not there. It's really annoying me. Like, why is it so hard just to get over these things? Yeah.
Michelle (29:32.144)
Sure.
Michelle (29:49.647)
Mm.
Mikelle Ethier (29:57.176)
Yeah.
Michelle (29:58.191)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (29:58.545)
and that highlights a schema actually. So when you're in your, when you're in that position, there is always a schema involved when logically something makes sense, but your emotions haven't caught up to it. That's a schema trigger. Right. And so then that would be a cue for you to notice that, okay. So logically values wise, emotional needs wise, I'm fine with what I did.
Michelle (30:12.611)
Okay.
Justine Corry (30:23.593)
I don't think I did anything wrong. My moral code is all good. But these emotions don't make sense to me. And so the first thing is actually to understand what's going on and validate the feelings and give yourself clarity. Okay. So I'll get you to close your eyes for me if you're comfy. And this is just a little thing I do with clients to teach them to tune into their bodies. It's not mine. It's a guy called Dan Siegel. He's an amazing neuroscientist. Have you heard of him? Yeah.
Michelle (30:36.591)
Okay.
Michelle (30:40.838)
you.
Mikelle Ethier (30:50.764)
Hmm
Justine Corry (30:53.301)
love him. And that's called the SIFT exercise. But what it does is it gives you the information you need to start making sense of your patterns. Okay. So think about the situation with your friend. And we're going to just get you to tune in and you're going to tell me what body sensations you have, what images you have, what emotions you have and what you're thinking. So we're going to break down. It's like we're going to zoom in and really dissect it.
Michelle (31:05.99)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (31:22.517)
Okay, so just bring maybe the part of it into your mind that you are finding distressing. So the particular word you said, or it could be her facial expression, or it could be what she said, just bring it into your mind. And then if you don't mind, just tell me what the image is.
Michelle (31:36.23)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (31:41.03)
Just the, can just see what, like I'm just playing, replaying the situation in my head, like the scene.
Justine Corry (31:50.389)
Okay. So is it and the image is it from a bird's eye view? Is it from your perspective? Or is it how you look to her?
Michelle (32:01.975)
of a bird's eye view.
Justine Corry (32:03.445)
Okay. So it's like, you're, it's like, you're a third person watching this exchange. Okay. And what is so triggering for you about her response? Was she a bit cranky? Was it sort of shocking given? Okay. All right. Good. Now stay with that feeling and just tell me how you're feeling in your body.
Michelle (32:06.053)
Yeah.
Michelle (32:15.406)
I was just shocked. I was just shocked. Yeah.
Michelle (32:25.412)
I can feel like really big weighted ball heaviness in my like middle, like upper abdomen.
Justine Corry (32:35.669)
Okay, all right. Anything in your chest? Tightening or heart rate up a bit? Yep. Anything in your lower stomach?
Michelle (32:43.439)
tightening my chest, yeah.
Michelle (32:48.396)
No, my lower stomach is fine.
Justine Corry (32:49.363)
No? Okay. Anything, this may sound weird, but any sort of tingles down your arms and legs or anything.
Michelle (32:57.286)
yeah, but not until you said it.
Justine Corry (33:02.855)
Okay, that's all right. That's okay. That's okay. And how intense are those feelings right now out of 10?
Michelle (33:10.648)
say that the strongest is in my stomach, the upper stomach, and that's like an eight or nine.
Justine Corry (33:13.352)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (33:16.775)
Okay, so we've done images, we've done sensations, okay, do you know what emotions you'll be having?
Michelle (33:24.39)
embarrassment, mostly embarrassment, I guess.
Justine Corry (33:30.643)
Yes, okay good. All right, so that's good. That's the feelings and then what are you thinking?
Michelle (33:36.998)
Like, why? Why did I do that? Why did I think that was funny? Why? Like, was it not funny?
Justine Corry (33:41.437)
Okay. Okay. Now, you know, if you're in front of me as a client right now, what I'd probably do is take you into a bit of what we call an affect bridge where we track this feeling through time. And we look at other times you've had the same feeling. So you get the sense of continuity about the state. So then you feel and know it's not just about this one time. Okay. It's actually got a bigger pattern in your life. Cause I imagine that feeling would come up for you and other similar situations. Okay.
Michelle (33:58.714)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (34:10.746)
Yes.
Justine Corry (34:11.157)
You know what I call that? That's a shame bomb.
Michelle (34:14.48)
Shame bomb. Yeah, I live in that.
Justine Corry (34:16.115)
Yeah. Yeah. That's one thing that it just sounds like it's like the feelings and yes, my ass feelings down your arms and legs. It's like, gosh, you know, and this goes to show how difficult these schemers can be because you're fine. And then her reaction, right, has the capacity to just throw your nervous system into complete disarray. And then all of a sudden, you're just regulated room, like your, your brain wants you to keep coming back to it. Right.
Michelle (34:43.174)
Yeah, and you know what though, you just said something. I didn't even think of it as my, like, I was in a sympathetic, parasympathetic state. I didn't even, it was all here for me. I didn't even think about the fact that my body is doing fight or flight kind of right now.
Justine Corry (34:51.753)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (34:59.379)
Yes. Yeah. And you know, like, so your body thinks you're in danger, which I know is a bit weird. It doesn't make logical sense, but just keep in mind for a little person, for a child, rejection is dangerous. So the part of your brain that punches out emotions is referring to rules that it loom in you a little. And that's what's coming up now.
Mikelle Ethier (35:13.088)
Hmm
Michelle (35:13.232)
Hmm.
Michelle (35:24.357)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (35:26.569)
and so that exercise, you know, not that you can do that in the middle of a trigger, depends what's going on. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, but you quickly learn to tune into yourself like that on the run, on the fly. So, you know, what's going on. okay. This is not just about this woman in front of me. I was fine until she disapproved of what I said or had a reaction that showed her disapproval or rejection of me. okay. This is my defectiveness schema coming up. I know what this is.
Michelle (35:51.749)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (35:55.925)
Right. And then you're in a completely different position then because it's not about it then becomes less about the person in front of you. You know, she had her own trigger, to be honest.
Michelle (36:06.426)
Fair right.
Mikelle Ethier (36:07.416)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (36:07.657)
You know, it's like she was in her own little schema trigger there. And that's, that's what happens with humans. We were just a bunch of schema triggers. Sometimes I imagine bouncing up and set up. yeah. but you were then in a different position to do something with that feeling. Okay. Now that, that is then what the work is learning to deal with that feeling better. And I promise like, if you do the work and get to a point where in real time you're processing and you're quite unperturbed.
Michelle (36:15.997)
my god.
Justine Corry (36:37.781)
by that person's reaction. Doesn't have the same power over you. You can see it. You might have like a little one or a two. You know, okay, that's my defective in the schema, but it becomes information rather than something that you have to derails your emotional state. So, oh, okay, that tells me what it is. Yeah, look, good question. It kind of varies. know that sounds terrible.
Mikelle Ethier (36:53.324)
That sounds amazing.
Michelle (36:55.03)
Yeah, so how do we get to that and how long does it take? How much work is this?
Justine Corry (37:05.503)
But I'll say what I say to clients when they come and see me, like, I tend to see people for at least six months.
These are long-term patterns that we're breaking. You didn't learn them overnight. There's no sort of tip tricks hacks that you can, that I can give you that you will just take away and be able to run with and it'll be fine. This is a complete rewiring of how you show up in the world really. Like it's a, it's just a fundamental shift in who you are and your relationships and what you think of yourself. and yeah, so at least six months, but I've really long-term relationships with my clients. Like most the time.
Mikelle Ethier (37:31.2)
Hmm.
Michelle (37:31.92)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (37:45.727)
They'll come and do an intense didn't with me say six months. And then they might come and see me once every four weeks just to keep the process sort of like building on it and problem solving triggers, you know, life events happen. so yeah.
Michelle (37:57.413)
Yeah.
Michelle (38:02.213)
Because it's like a muscle, you need to, once you build it, you'll need to keep working it out. Otherwise, you know, it would disappear again. I would expect.
Justine Corry (38:06.153)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (38:11.891)
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, the brain is amazing, but this is where neuroplasticity comes in. Right. So we would be changing how you respond to people who don't. Receive what you say. Well, basically that would be a, you know, we'd want you to have a bit of psychological Teflon. call it. So it's like, that slips right off. yeah. So it's amazing what, what you can do once you've got that capacity.
Mikelle Ethier (38:31.576)
Mm.
Justine Corry (38:41.513)
And it just builds. And then you end up doing it on autopilot. And I love it when clients come in and they'll say, you know what, like I saw my ex say, that's I often help women post separation and divorce. That's a great time for breaking patterns. yeah. Set yourself up differently for the next season of your life. I saw my ex and I was like, was fine. He was annoying. He did his thing.
Mikelle Ethier (38:57.91)
I'm kidding.
Michelle (38:58.98)
Yeah
Mikelle Ethier (39:04.268)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (39:09.239)
Wow.
Justine Corry (39:11.679)
Well, I got that text message and you know, what a dick. But I've got on my day. It didn't derail me.
Mikelle Ethier (39:18.529)
Wow.
Michelle (39:20.528)
Cool.
Justine Corry (39:21.269)
So not, you know, like not neutral, but irrelevant.
Mikelle Ethier (39:27.084)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (39:31.113)
Yeah, so I know that answers your question, how long it takes.
Michelle (39:36.89)
Well, no, it's work. And I think that anything worthwhile though, any, takes work. And we're learning that, that seems to be one of the common things that's coming up this season of our podcast is that.
Justine Corry (39:42.526)
Hmm.
Michelle (39:53.686)
this is like, this is going to take some work. And it's, you know, it's, it's worth it though. And it doesn't have to be grueling. And it doesn't have to mean that you have to give everything up and quit your job and, you know, move to the country and you know, yeah, thank you. My brain is not firing, but it's going to take a little bit of work. And I think anything, anything worthwhile does. So I think that's great.
Mikelle Ethier (40:08.63)
live in a yurt.
Mikelle Ethier (40:19.81)
Well, and I would say not to get all, I joke that I'm a recovering banker. That was my former career, but not to get all, not exactly. So if you have like what, four more hours, maybe we could work on one of my schemas, but think about the return on investment. Like think about the amount of time, individually, collectively that you and I have wasted in our lifetimes, right? Trying to figure out.
Justine Corry (40:20.297)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (40:26.682)
really? You're recovering from anger? that just cost me so much.
Michelle (40:29.902)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mikelle Ethier (40:48.256)
why we're so upset because someone said something or they got upset because we did something or what have you. Six months is nothing relative to, right? The time and energy, I would suggest your clients probably feel they find a new because they're not weighed down by these emotions, these nervous system feelings that they don't
Michelle (41:15.76)
dysregulations.
Mikelle Ethier (41:17.846)
You know that you I think that's the insanity of it. It's constantly why okay rationally I know what happened, but why am I still feeling this way? Why can't I get rid of this? Why can't this big? What did you describe Michelle the balls heavy in my chest? Why can't I make these go away and my God it no wonder we're all exhausted.
Justine Corry (41:27.849)
Mm.
Michelle (41:33.392)
Big heavy ball, yeah.
Justine Corry (41:34.484)
Yeah.
Michelle (41:42.246)
Absolutely.
Justine Corry (41:43.253)
Yeah. And when you understand your scheme is like, I call it a superpower, actually, I think it's a superpower. You get clarity very quickly and confusion is distressing for a human being. We hate not knowing why. Once the loops open, we want to close it. that's, you know, that's why I have the internet from that tendency. We just want to know what is going on. And so that clarity you get even from just understanding is huge.
Mikelle Ethier (41:48.406)
Mm, yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (42:04.715)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (42:12.735)
Then there's the change process, which I'll be honest is a lot more frustrating than disheartening at times because you're, you know, you're, then showing up and trying to do the opposite of what you feel, which by the way, our brain isn't designed to do easily for good reason. So it's really going against the grain, which is why change is so hard. But that first phase of just, okay, these are my schemas and this is what triggers them. And this is how I tend to cope with them. And these types of people trigger me. okay. This is why my mother-in-law is so difficult. okay.
Mikelle Ethier (42:25.88)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (42:41.333)
This is why I choose partners and narcissistic because my mother was, you know what mean? Like it all just makes sense. And then you can then see little micro moments where you can start doing things differently. And then it's just persisting.
Michelle (42:55.952)
And so doing the opposite. So I've been sitting here ruminating and I can't go back in time and I can't make any changes. But the next time something like this happens, is that when I take action to correct this or is it, do I do something now to stop myself from continuing in this little mental spiral?
Justine Corry (43:21.981)
Yeah. Good question. So if you were my client, there would be some journaling and writing exercises that we would be doing for you to shift this internal stuff and we'd be linking it back to old patterns. So that in and of itself takes away some of the sting of it being this particular person. Like really she's just an actor in your play. You know what mean? Like we all, that's another way to think about it. Our schema set up these plays and we just cast different people.
Michelle (43:42.97)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (43:50.685)
as the main characters. And so that's more empowering because it's not about her, it's about you. And then each time you process the trigger from this perspective, you're giving yourself that muscle or being able to do it more easily in the moment. And you actually process some of the trauma of it too, right? And then we would work out, okay, so sounds like you just let it go in the moment. You didn't say anything to her. You just let it go.
Michelle (43:52.358)
I
Mikelle Ethier (44:09.335)
Hmm.
Michelle (44:19.908)
I apologized. I did. I'm a good apologizer. But I did, I mean, she called me out on something. I wasn't just going to say, well, no, I just said, you know what? I did not mean to offend you. I'm really, really sorry. Like, it was a simple apology.
Justine Corry (44:21.503)
okay, you're polygons. Okay. Does that sound good? okay.
Okay.
Justine Corry (44:33.109)
Okay, yeah, all right. that's, yeah, that's okay. As long as it doesn't compromise your self-respect in some way, know, like you didn't sort of totally fall on your sword and take this sort of, yeah. So we would just work out what's effective, right? And what you may, what you did may have been the most effective thing you did, you could have done in the circumstance, but it's more your internal experience of it. So we'd more focus on that. But let's just say,
Michelle (44:43.184)
no, no, no. It was a simple story.
Justine Corry (45:01.277)
You decided actually, I wish I'd done this instead. We would then be working out, okay, so in similar situations, what would you like to be able to do? What would get in the way? What's effective? What sits with your values? Is there an opportunity to circle back to her and say, look, I'm reflection, blah, blah. Would that be effective? So you'd also work out that as well.
Mikelle Ethier (45:04.536)
Mm.
Mikelle Ethier (45:19.895)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (45:24.326)
Okay, so there's lots of ways.
Justine Corry (45:25.939)
Yeah. And then, you know, everyone's little journey and patterns are so bespoke, you know, like most of my clients struggle with boundaries, for example, like boundaries of themselves, boundaries of other people. They look very strong and like they've got their stuff together, but you know, they do it through brute forcing their way and saying yes to everything.
Mikelle Ethier (45:38.392)
Mm.
Mikelle Ethier (45:50.058)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle (45:51.054)
Yeah, I think that most women can, if not now, at some point in their life definitely have had boundary issues, whether they're physical or emotional.
Justine Corry (45:55.294)
Yes.
Justine Corry (46:00.829)
So yeah, so it's sort of.
Yeah, depends on internal work and then sometimes different behaviors externally depending on what situation it's.
Mikelle Ethier (46:12.982)
Hmm. Powerful stuff. You've you said in a post, yes, I'm stalking you on Instagram now. So just don't be alarmed.
Michelle (46:14.522)
fascinating. Yeah.
Michelle (46:23.206)
And then you said, then this post.
Justine Corry (46:23.461)
It's a bit...
Mikelle Ethier (46:29.112)
And then this, but then you da da da, and then you, but every time I see you on Instagram, I read something new and I'm like, oh, this is so good. Yeah, I'm always like, and Michelle, and then she said that. Yeah. So the thing that I'm owing and owing about now is you have said self-trust and self-respect are the best antidepressants. Like I get chills even just.
Michelle (46:35.536)
Good.
Michelle (46:40.183)
I get so many screen grabs and like, did you see this?
Justine Corry (46:40.348)
All right.
Justine Corry (46:51.817)
Yes. Yes.
Mikelle Ethier (46:57.962)
saying that out loud. So can you elaborate on that? I think there isn't a listener out there who doesn't feel that in some way and probably could really benefit from better understanding what you're talking about.
Justine Corry (47:11.443)
Yeah, so that's something I strongly believe by the way. You know, I see women or like they come and they're depressed. Okay, they're shadows of themselves. You can tell they're like hunched. They're looking down, their voice is soft and they're blaming themselves for whatever is going on. I they shouldn't be doing that in reality. And they have got all of these schemers.
usually the six that I've mentioned as a minimum, that take them away from having their own internal compass about what their needs are and what their values are, and therefore showing up in relationships with those in mind. And so they're in situations where they're feeling trapped, controlled, invisible, burnt out, exhausted, they're over-functioning, and as a result of that, they're depressed, right? Because no human thrives.
where their emotional, when their emotional needs aren't met. We all have universal emotional needs. Okay. And so what I'm trying to move them towards, like really the transformation I'm trying to give them is to...
look within themselves for the answers, not looking outwards to other people's reactions to tell them what the answer is.
Michelle (48:31.078)
just love that.
Justine Corry (48:31.901)
Yeah, because as soon as you do that, you're powerless and you're just tossed around by other people's schemas, to be honest, generally, if someone's behaving poorly. And so when you've got that solid center, I know what I'm asking for is reasonable. It's okay to want this. I'm doing this effectively. This is not a me problem. I'm showing up in a way that I'm proud of.
You're not capable of doing that in this moment. Okay. You've got your own stuff going on. You just feel different. You just feel good. And that's, you can't do it if it's just a, an act, right? There has to be an embodiment. I keep pointing to my chest. Cause there has to be an embodiment of it.
Mikelle Ethier (49:13.912)
When you do it as an act, does that often lead to what you refer to as hyperindependence? Which is also not healthy, right? You might recognize what you've just described, but when you're not doing it authentically, you can create what you think is something healthy, but it's really not. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.
Justine Corry (49:21.525)
can be yes, Yeah.
Justine Corry (49:38.185)
That's right. That's a coping mode. You're in a coping mode. You're looking like a duck on the water underneath you. There's that internal turmoil. And the only way out of that is to be able to tune into yourself, trust your intuition, really better articulate your values and your emotional needs. And that is your guiding light, right? That's how you show up.
Mikelle Ethier (49:47.276)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (50:06.389)
And self trust and self respect come from that. So when you've been in an interaction, even though it's difficult, but you've shown up in a way that you're proud of, that self respect. We all know that feeling when we're going, oh God, why did I not say anything? Why did I just go along with that? And then you've got all the guilt and shame, like guilt and shame, not self respect. It's hard to have. So then you feel good. You feel empowered, right? I want women to feel empowered.
Michelle (50:25.764)
No.
Mikelle Ethier (50:34.091)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justine Corry (50:35.581)
as I move through the world. Because there's enough forces that keep us small, god knows.
Mikelle Ethier (50:40.044)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle (50:44.134)
Sorry, I have got like lights flashing on and off in my house. I don't know what's happening. Oh, sorry, distracted.
Mikelle Ethier (50:47.192)
Interesting. Possessed, possessed.
Mikelle Ethier (50:53.866)
What is one thing, Dr. Corey, that you would share with women in perimenopause who are suddenly exhausted, feeling overwhelmed, and don't quite know what's going on? What's the one thing you'd like them to know?
Justine Corry (51:12.413)
Okay. Well, commonly the first reflex might be to blame yourself and think what's wrong with me. Why untie my happy self? Why am I such a cranky so-and-so? Why am I not coping? Why am I not thinking clearly and have a lot of shame and guilt around it? Right. And to not think about actually what's going on my body? What do I need? It's okay to be having symptoms. It's okay to not be a hundred percent.
Mikelle Ethier (51:20.706)
Yep.
Mikelle Ethier (51:30.892)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (51:43.057)
It's normal to be feeling not 100 % in this phase of my life, this season, all normal, all good, it's biological. And then look, okay, what is it in my environment that isn't supporting me to get what I need?
Mikelle Ethier (51:57.483)
You
Justine Corry (51:58.857)
Right? So to think, you know, obviously problem solve what's going on with you with, know, whatever medication or other treatments you want to try, obviously, but not see that as a burden, you know, like we're so used to seeing our needs as burdens, but actually like it's just, it's just the way it is. Like, it's fine. It's normal. and then, you know, it's not you, it's your cage then. Okay. So what's going on around me that's making this hard.
Mikelle Ethier (52:17.559)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (52:27.551)
Could be relationships, could be jobs, could be children. It may be that you have to step back from doing what you'd normally do with your kids. now you know what, now's the time to make them do a bit more for themselves. For example.
Mikelle Ethier (52:41.57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle (52:44.102)
What if you're in a relationship, what if it comes up that you've done this work and you feel like it's either the job or the relationship and a lot of women feel stuck though. They don't feel that they can make some of those big changes maybe.
Justine Corry (52:45.258)
Justine Corry (52:56.701)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (53:01.363)
Well, the should I stay or should I go question is a big one. And you arrive at that question generally after you've done a bit more of this work I've been discussing. So you kind of know what your stuff is and how you're showing up. And you might've already been experimenting with showing up more effectively and seeing what happens.
Mikelle Ethier (53:04.204)
Hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (53:17.73)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle (53:24.912)
Mm-hmm.
Justine Corry (53:25.333)
And then it's like, okay, what's possible? So practically speaking, could I end the relationship? Could I leave the job? And then that's a whole nother.
then it's like, okay, well, I could, so what is it in me that's preventing me? And that's more sort of patterns and stories you're telling yourself about, et cetera. Or it could be actually, can't, there's practical reasons why I can't. So then how can I manage it in a way that doesn't make myself the problem all the time? Even if you're stuck in a difficult relationship, a difficult job, not that you, I'll make another point in a minute. Even if you're stuck in that,
Michelle (53:57.979)
Right.
Justine Corry (54:08.211)
you can still shift how you're showing up for yourself.
and be coaching yourself through it and making sure your needs are met to the extent that they can be and being effective in showing up in a way you're proud of rather than letting the situation crush you. But I will say after you do this work, I often laugh with my clients. It's like they develop an allergy to being subjugated, the logic. I cannot stand to be in this
Mikelle Ethier (54:38.818)
right.
Justine Corry (54:42.075)
situation where I feel inauthentic and I have to pretend that I'm okay with it, my body's just saying no, I'm just not doing that. And then once you're in that state, it's amazing what happens.
Mikelle Ethier (54:54.678)
Yeah. And I would guess you probably have had clients where maybe when they get to that state, when they give maybe the office or the boss or maybe the partner the opportunity to understand what's going on, what they're feeling that maybe there are then changes. I don't know. Is that? Yeah.
Michelle (54:55.91)
Yeah.
Justine Corry (55:14.591)
Can be. Yeah. And that's part of the finding out. Like when you start expressing your needs effectively and showing up for yourself and being the best partner or employee that you can be, that you're proud of. And part of that is being an effective communicator around the problems or the complaints you have. You will quickly see what's possible with the other person.
Mikelle Ethier (55:35.522)
Yep.
Justine Corry (55:37.149)
and whether they're capable of reciprocating or changing or, you know, being open to modifying their behavior. And sometimes they are and amazing things happen and sometimes they're not. It kind of depends. You find out.
Mikelle Ethier (55:45.122)
Yeah. Yeah.
powerful stuff.
Justine Corry (55:51.589)
It's great. I am.
Mikelle Ethier (55:53.91)
You must love your job because it's hard, but I can't even imagine how amazing it is to see someone come into themselves, right?
Justine Corry (55:56.071)
I do. I love what I do.
Justine Corry (56:05.053)
Yeah. one of my favorite things is, well it's a couple of favorite things, but you know, we know when I described that, woman who, you know, looks downcast, not taking care of herself, you know, and then one day she'll walk into my office and she's just got this vibe going on. It's like, she's, I don't know, she's, she might've lost a bit of weight, gotten fit, you know what I mean? Like feeling good in her body.
Michelle (56:05.691)
Mm.
Mikelle Ethier (56:17.802)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (56:31.05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Justine Corry (56:33.609)
She's making eye contact. I'm like, wow, like, wow. That's so cool. I said, I wish I could take it before and after, right? And that's just her shifting how she's showing up in the world.
Michelle (56:37.74)
amazing.
Mikelle Ethier (56:42.345)
No kidding.
Mikelle Ethier (56:47.189)
amazing.
Justine Corry (56:48.405)
being self-lead rather than, you know, editing and ducking and moving.
Mikelle Ethier (56:51.038)
Self-led, that's a great... and so much in that word, right? Self-led, like wow.
Michelle (56:54.128)
That's a.
Justine Corry (56:59.923)
Yes. Yeah. I've been like, I've been trying to articulate how I help women and that would be, they embody that they're a self-lead woman. Like they've just got a strong inner core that that's their reference point. Not everyone's reactions around them. Obviously, you know, just to reassure everyone, not like you become a selfish, you know, I don't give shit about anyone.
Michelle (57:15.194)
Mm.
Michelle (57:25.814)
Bet.
Justine Corry (57:29.841)
No, you're showing up how you want to show up and you can do that more effectively, not as cranky and resentful and irritable to be honest, because you're doing it.
Mikelle Ethier (57:39.008)
Well, and I would say you can be more caring and more impactful and more loving to anybody in your orbit because you're not exhausted by flipping out about everything and carrying the weight around and not, right? And so it's not that you don't care. It's that you care about the things that matter.
Justine Corry (57:44.105)
Mm.
Michelle (57:53.51)
and you're not carrying the weight around the weight of the world.
Justine Corry (58:03.625)
That's right. It's great. It's a great place to be.
Mikelle Ethier (58:08.704)
It's amazing.
Michelle (58:09.216)
And it sounds like it's a we all need to come and see you. It's funny as I'm listening to you speak, I keep thinking of that Roberta Flack song. I felt I felt he found my letters and read them all out loud. Like I'm like, yeah, me too. yeah, me too. Like this is like everything has resonated so much. And I'm sure that there's a lot of other women that are like, how OK, how do I find how do I work with Dr. Corey? And if I can't, how do I find another scheme of therapists? Like are there a lot of you out there? How do we and can we all work with you?
Mikelle Ethier (58:22.552)
You
Justine Corry (58:38.919)
Yeah, well, well, first you can find me. My website is just drjustincurry.com. That's my website and that's my Instagram as well. Yep. So can follow me on Instagram, LinkedIn. and yes, I, you can have one-on-one coaching with me. I'm starting up a group program, which I'm really excited about because I think as women, there's a lot to be said about being together and, you know, realizing.
Michelle (58:47.888)
We'll have that in a show now, yep.
Michelle (58:59.779)
Mikelle Ethier (59:00.64)
amazing.
Justine Corry (59:06.901)
you know, sure, we've got these patterns that we learn within our family of origin, but there's also just patterns we all have as a woman generally, you know, keep us small and yeah, yeah. And I, so often when I'm working individually with clients, I'll be thinking, Oh, I wish you could hear what my other client had to say about this because she's one step ahead of you. think it'd be really inspired by, know, so it's, so I'm starting that probably in June. So you can get in the wait list for that. And then I'm also running a workshop.
Michelle (59:15.3)
And that community is key.
Michelle (59:30.136)
Amazing.
Justine Corry (59:36.751)
in a few weeks for women who are wanting to apply this framework to their dating. Okay. So yeah, I've done a lot of work. Yeah. These patterns in dating are like, you know, they show up and just one thing I would say to women as well is just keep in mind that small decisions create big hangovers.
Michelle (59:44.166)
Eww.
Mikelle Ethier (59:45.73)
I know so many people who need to be part of that.
Michelle (59:48.262)
Yeah
Michelle (59:54.182)
Thanks
Mikelle Ethier (01:00:02.504)
that's good. yeah.
Michelle (01:00:03.462)
brilliant.
Justine Corry (01:00:05.385)
Yeah. So for example, agreeing to go on that second, third, fourth date with that guy and then get an attached to him because you start sleeping with him and then it becomes a partner. Should have said no to that second date. When your body was telling you he's off, there's something off about him. For example, like your body knows, but we override it all the time. Our scheme has helped cause us to override it into.
Michelle (01:00:16.912)
Bye.
Michelle (01:00:26.458)
Yes.
Mikelle Ethier (01:00:31.222)
Not only do, like, do we sometimes run towards it, nevermind over, like, sometimes it's more than override, right? Like, I feel like there's that attract, I don't know. I don't know.
Michelle (01:00:37.062)
You
Justine Corry (01:00:43.549)
Yeah, so look, I don't mind. Let's probably hold on for a longer.
Michelle (01:00:45.508)
Micael's got a tape.
Mikelle Ethier (01:00:47.126)
hahahahah
Justine Corry (01:00:51.773)
I could put a few hypotheses out there, but that's a whole nother, like there's so much in that. But I really love helping women not choose another dud relationship because relationships have the biggest impact on our wellbeing. If you've got a relationship where you're triggered, your nervous system's on edge and you don't feel supported, you're not going to be able to look out into the world and be your best self.
Mikelle Ethier (01:00:54.156)
That's a whole other podcast.
Michelle (01:00:56.304)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (01:00:58.177)
Yeah.
Michelle (01:01:08.166)
Mm-hmm.
Mikelle Ethier (01:01:08.318)
No kidding.
Justine Corry (01:01:19.317)
You're going to be preoccupied with dealing with that shit in the background. Sorry. Don't mind swearing. Yeah. It's just preoccupying when it shouldn't be. You can't then do other things that are important to you. That's why I love catching women in between relationships. They're out of a bad one. Sure. They may be dealing with a difficult X, but let's not create another one. Let's choose differently.
Mikelle Ethier (01:01:22.092)
Yeah, no, square away.
Michelle (01:01:22.33)
Yeah. It takes up a lot of space. Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (01:01:39.478)
Yeah, no kidding. No kidding.
Michelle (01:01:43.3)
that program's gonna be amazing. And that's a workshop,
Justine Corry (01:01:45.619)
Yeah. So yeah, that's the workshop. Then there's the group program and, yeah, and you can work point on one with me, but schema therapy, there is, I'll give you a link you can put into the show notes. We can search worldwide for a schema therapist near you. yeah. And, know, like a lot of us do online appointments now, like, yeah, I mean, I've got clients all over the world.
Mikelle Ethier (01:02:03.993)
great.
Michelle (01:02:05.368)
Excellent, that would be amazing.
Mikelle Ethier (01:02:10.136)
So you're not bound by you can you you don't have to just practice in Australia as an example like you can. amazing okay.
Justine Corry (01:02:17.287)
No, no, I've got clients everywhere. yeah, because of Zoom, that was one good thing that came out of the pandemic actually, wasn't it? We all become a lot more comfortable connecting over Zoom or whatever. So yeah, so that's how you can work with me.
Mikelle Ethier (01:02:26.646)
Yeah, no kidding.
Michelle (01:02:27.013)
Yeah.
Michelle (01:02:34.662)
love it. Well I'll be in the group. I'm signing up. Yeah, no, it was wonderful.
Mikelle Ethier (01:02:37.46)
Yeah, yeah, we'll we'll we'll we'll you again shortly.
Justine Corry (01:02:39.989)
Lovely, lovely, that would be lovely.
Mikelle Ethier (01:02:42.232)
Thank you so much. This has been so impactful and is going to be so helpful for so many people. So thank you very much.
Justine Corry (01:02:53.385)
No, thank you. See, this is an opposite action for me. It's like, I'll just let that sink in. I'll let that sink in because I'm going go, it's not that great, isn't that? You know? What I know isn't that important.
Michelle (01:02:54.831)
Yeah.
Mikelle Ethier (01:03:01.538)
K-
Mikelle Ethier (01:03:05.184)
Yeah, yeah, no. Thank you for demonstrating. Yes. Yes. Thank you. That is so important because how often do we all do that where we just dismiss, yeah, yeah, it was nothing. No, it wasn't nothing. It was really powerful. Yeah.
Michelle (01:03:07.359)
my God, I love that you just did that. Thank you.
Justine Corry (01:03:10.921)
Yeah, it is. You'll do that. Yeah, that's right. Yes.
Michelle (01:03:20.634)
That was one, and I heard you saying it, now I visually, that was resonated. That was amazing. Yeah.
Justine Corry (01:03:20.885)
Thank you.
